Snake vs Joker
Table of Contents Show
Joker
BACKGROUND
Ren Amamiya or as he is called in the manga Akira Kuruso is the protagonist from the game Persona 5 a spin-off series from Atlus’ long-running JRPG franchise Shin Megami Tensei, Ren was an ordinary 16-year-old until one night he tried to save a woman from a drunkard trying to take advantage of her, during the conflict the man got injured blaming it on Ren and pressed false assault charges that ended up leaving the kid with a criminal record and expelled from his old high school, he was sent off from his home to live in an attic on Leblanc, a coffee shop in Shibuya owned by Sojiro Sakura for the next year. While there he stumbled across a weird app on his phone called the metanav that gave him access to the metaverse, a strange reality shaped by the desires of the masses, those with distorted desires whoever, managed to manifest a “palace’’ a reality created by twisted viewpoints where their shadow selves rule enforcing said malicious desires. In his first day at Shunji Academy, Ren found himself in the palace of Suguru Kamoshida, former Olympian athlete and volleyball coach Kamoshida had such a high status at the school that most of the faculty and students turned a blind eye to his disgusting behavior of physically abusing the male students and sexually harassing the female ones. Due to this, the palace took the appearance of a castle with Kamoshida being its king. After being captured by the guards in the castle Ren, in the middle of a live or death situation, sick of this unjust situation awoke to his Persona!
From that day onward he took up the code-name Joker and became the leader of the Phantom Thieves, a group of teens similar to him with the goal to expose the corrupt members of society by taking their palace’s treasure in the process provoking a change of heart that makes them confess their crimes. Doesn’t matter if the target is some small-time crook, abusive teacher, mob boss, or even a god (RPGs am I right?) the phantom thieves will take all the hearts.
EQUIPMENT
WILL OF REBELLION
At first glance, Joker’s metaverse outfit might look like just what your average gentleman thief would wear, beyond that the clothes are actually, a manifestation of his will to rebel thus with this ability he can prevent any distorted desires from the palace rulers from affecting him.
DAGGER
Joker’s most basic form of a melee attack is his dagger or more accurately daggers since he can equip a total of 20 different of them all giving him different attributes and varied damaged output. The strongest one in his arsenal is “Paradise Lost”. It reduces any curse damage given to Joker by a great amount. In Persona Q2 the knife grants Joker a small boost on his magic and agility plus the amount of HP he uses for spells is cut in half.
GUN
For his neutral special he wields a gun, overused memes aside, Joker’s pistol, in reality, is not a real gun it’s a model one that if the enemy subconsciously believes that is a real one, it can shoot actual bullets via cognition turning it into a real gun. Similar to how Paradise lost is Joker’s best dagger, Tyrant Pistol is his best handgun that can boost his magic stats. He can charge his shoot to blast a more powerful bullet, however, that will use up more bullets than normal.
ITEMS AND ARMOR
Joker has loads of items All giving him a variety of utilities in battles like replenishing HP and SP stats both in short amounts or in full recovery, reviving allies, inflicting and curing status ailments just to name a few. Armor is pretty self-explanatory, all of them affecting Joker's defense and speed but some giving extra bonuses like resistances to specific elements/ailments, amplifying stats, and more. Ren's toughest armor would easily be Tantric Oath giving him high chances of avoiding all forms of magic attacks. [Full list for all items and armor here]
OTHER NOTEWORTHY EQUIPMENT
Grappling Hook: Is a grappling hook… not much else, he can use it to propel himself into enemies.
● Vanish Ball: Allows Joker and his party to escape from battles.
ABILITIES
THIRD EYE
The third eye is an ability Ren can use in both the metaverse and the real world that allows him to highlight important objects even those not visible to the naked eye, he can determine an enemy's threat level relative to his power; while also being able to single out targets with anything specific he needs for his current objective. He can see footprints, infrared lasers, and the range of security cameras; Third eye can also slow down Ren’s perception of time.
PERSONAS
Now time to talk about the meat of Joker’s arsenal, his VERY wide variety of personas he can acquire through the negotiation with shadows or fusion, he can store 12 at once but only summon one at a time alternating freely in the middle of a battle with him inheriting said persona’s stats, resistances, and weaknesses while summoned. The way Megami Tensei is structured with the fusion system allows every single persona on Joker’s compendium to inherit almost all spells in the game! I'll go over them and generalize most of the abilities Joker can use.
SPELLS
PHYSICAL AND GUN SPELLS - These are melee or ranged attacks capable of hitting individual enemies with attacks like Deadly Fury, God’s Hand, Snap but also have moves that can hit multiple targets at once like Gigantomachia, Riot Gun, and many more. These spells can do technical damage if the foe is frozen or shocked with the gun skills inflicting added damage on confused opponents making them more powerful.
HEALING AND SUPPORT SPELLS - As implied by the name Joker can use skills that heal individual people or multiple at once while also reviving dead allies, Support spells on the other hand have a little more variety on their utilities, With him being able to buff his strength, speed, defense, and debuff the enemy's attributes; He can negate any debuffs inflicted on him and null buffs the foul has; not to mention being able to cover elemental weakness, temporarily remove resistances and completely reflect the next magical and physical damage via Tetrakarn and Makarakarn; Plus Joker can double the damage of his next attack with charge and concentrate.
AILMENT SPELLS - In typical RPG fashing, P5 contains a couple of status ailments in its gameplay, with Joker being able to cause confusion, rage, amnesia, brainwashing, despair, fear, dizziness, and sleep on his enemies. Of course, he’s capable of curing ailments with the aforementioned healing spells or using items.
ELEMENTAL SPELLS - Personas can manipulate elements such as Fire, Ice, Electricity, Wind, Psychic, Nuclear, Light, and Dark with both the ladder having chances to instantly kill the opponents via Hama and Mudo skills.
ALMIGHTY SPELLS - The strongest form of magical attacks in not only in Persona but also in the entire Megami Tensei series, attacks from this category like Megidolaon or Morning Star bypass the enemies resistances and reflective barriers; even equipment in the game such as the omnipotent orb which can null any other form of attacks present in P5 and is described as capable of “bending the laws of the universe” can’t prevent almighty attacks; Almighty attacks were also described as bringing “death beyond death” to anyone caught by it.
Additionally Persona 5 Royal included the mechanic of personas traits giving them extra add-ons in combat like strengthening spells, reducing SP costs and damage inflicted on Joker, immunity over the same ailments as before, and a lot more. [Full list of these traits here]
OTHER SMALLER ABILITIES
Joker has shown to be pretty agile, performing huge backflips; leaping between tall buildings with ease, and doing acrobatic moves while attacking his foes with precision
Speaking of his precision, Ren can hit moving targets from long distances.
Can bust out some sick dance moves [This is very important]
FEATS
STRENGTH
His persona Agathion blew a hole through the roof of Shadow Kamoshida’s castle. (Possible calc?)
Arsene’s heel kick caused an explosion capable of sending cars flying. (Possible calc?)
His persona Hecatoncheires knocked back a large robot and swung him around before throwing him.
Kicked Shadow Kaneshiro across the room hard enough for smoke to rise.
His persona Seth caused a big explosion with a laser beam. (Possible calc?)
Pushes large ice blocks. (Possible calc?)
One-shot from his handgun was able to explode a car and shatter a giant golden trophy. (Possible calc?)
Knocked over the Piggytron. (Possible Calc?)
SPEED
Dodges a thrown chalk plus in the manga, he managed to do it without directly looking at it.
Quickly moves at speeds that make him appear as a blur, this is shown when Joker swiftly changes between hiding spots and when performing an all-out attack on the opponent. (Possible calc?)
Runs in the side of a building while avoiding bullets coming towards him.
Outruns gunfire and missiles from the Piggytron in both the anime and manga.
Jumps out of the way of a speeding car. (Possible calc?)
DURABILITY
Survives getting repeatedly slammed to the ground by Shadow Kamoshida with enough force to make a crater on the floor. (Possible calc?)
Survived getting hit by this massive sword that was able to create a crater on the ground. (Possible calc?)
Arsene blocked this explosion. (Possible calc?)
Okuninushi blocked this attack from Thor, the impact from this clash created a crater on the ground. (Possible calc?)
Survives this volleyball spike from Shadow Kamoshida that created an explosion.
Stands in front of this explosion and walks out of it unfazed. (Possible calc?)
Can survive being in outer space for a short amount of time.
Endured this massive shockwave from Adam Kadmon. (Possible calc?)
WEAKNESSES
Using the Persona spells consumes a portion of Joker’s HP and SP.
He has a limited amount of items he can carry.
As mentioned before Joker’s gun only becomes real by making the enemy consciously believe it is, if a foe were to bypass this cognitive effect the gun would revert to normal.
His anime adaptation is pretty shit.
SOLID SNAKE
BACKGROUND
Big Boss, history’s greatest soldier. Also known as Naked Snake, John set off on a path of militaristic greatness. In order to continue this greatness, John was used as a template for two twins. One of those twins was named David, but we all know him as Solid Snake.
Solid Snake entered the Green Berets as a teenager, and soon joined the special forces unit, FOXHOUND. On one fateful mission, Snake infiltrated Outer Heaven to rescue Grey Fox, even destroying a Metal Gear in the process, as well as the man running Outer Heaven. Although Snake technically entered early retirement, you all know how this little story goes. Soon, Snake would find himself on more missions than I care to count, fighting and fighting allies and enemies on the way.
EQUIPMENT
GUNS
To absolutely no one’s surprise, Snake packs a heavy arsenal of guns. His handgun is the Beretta M92F, which is a semi-automatic pistol that can be equipped with a suppressor as well as loaded with tranquilizer rounds. There’s also the MK23 SOCOM, Snake’s personal favorite semi-automatic that has a laser aim and suppression options. However, the MP5 just might be superior, as this silent submachine gun can hold up to nearly 1000 bullets and has 30 rounds per magazine. The FAMAS is a fully automatic rifle with 25 bullets per magazine and a firing rate of 1000 rounds per minute. Meanwhile, the PSS is a silenced pistol that fires at around 660 feet per second. But when Snake needs real firepower, he just out the AK-102, which fires at around 2,789 feet per second and can have a grenade launcher attachment. The M82A2 is arguably the most powerful sniper rifle in Snake’s arsenal, as it can take down massive mechs, such as the gekko, helicopters, humvees, and Strykers. Oh right, and Snake wields a fucking railgun. Finally, the MK2 Ruger is used for a variety of uses, but it’s especially reliable with tranquilizer rounds with various effects, including forcing the victim to lash out at teammates.
EXPLOSIVES
Guns won’t always get the job done, so Snake has a number of methods of anti-life demolition on hand. The M79 grenade launcher was capable of taking down a bulldozer as well as Hind D. The RPG-7V rocket launcher is used for tearing through tanks. His C4 plastic explosive is used primarily for blowing through weakened walls. Snake has a remote controlled missile, M68 fragmentation grenades, mines, and a surface-to-air missile launcher. There’s also the Nikita, which fires a low velocity missile that can be remote controlled. Snake can also use some time bombs and sleep gas mines. Arguably one of his most deadly explosives, however, is the phosphorus grenades, which explode with heat of over 5000 degrees fahrenheit.
GEAR
Snake’s Octocamo enhances his physical strength, prevents the possibility of being tracked, and allows Snake to blend into the background. The Bomb Blast Suit protects Snake from explosions and weighs up to 40 kilograms. His Body Armor is supposedly 5 times stronger than steel, and is especially effective
against bullets. Finally, the Solid Eye grants Snake night and infrared vision, the ability to track footprints and observe his opponents. This includes qualities such as physical and emotional state as well as specifics of the weapons his opponent is using.
MISCELLANEOUS
Yep, more stuff. The mine detector does what it’s named, the Jerry 2 Mouse is a remote scouting device, the camouflage stealth mat allows Snake to blend into his surroundings, and Snake even has his own miniature Metal Gear. The reactive radar has motion sensing technology, the anti-personnel sensor keeps track of electromagnetic fields and human heartbeats. Meanwhile, the Soliton radar system does what the aforementioned sensor does but far more advanced. Oh yeah, and a box.
SUPPORT
Snake has Otacon at his beck and call. Dr. Hal Emmerich is highly intelligent when it comes to programing and mechanical engineering.
ABILITIES
CQC
Taught to by Big Boss, Snake uses this fighting style in incredible ways. With it, Snake relies on both armed and unarmed combat to get the job done. A number of grapples and throws can be accomplished with this fighting style, relying on some derivation of the judo martial arts style. A user of CQC will often rely on a knife and gun to simultaneously fight close and far ranged. Really skilled users are experts at disarming their opponent in the middle of a fight. Snake is noted as having fought using judo, jujutsu, aikido, taekwondo, Muay Thai, karate, boxing, taijutsu, piloting, tactical weapons expertise, and far more.
CQB
Close quarters battle involves taking out compromised buildings full of armed enemies. These room clearing techniques have proven to be useful for Snake during the first two games.
FEATS
One of the most accomplished soldiers with an IQ of 180 and knowledge of six different languages
Took down the Running Man through use of clever tricks and tactics
Spent an entire game sneaking around soldiers with enhanced senses
Can run up to 22 mph
The MK23 SOCOM has an intensity of 3.88 MW/cm2
The M82A2 has an intensity of 77.5 MW/cm2
WEAKNESSES
Dependent on tech for stealth
Becomes less skilled the more frustrated he gets
SUMMARY
JOKER
Advantages:
Physically superior
Counters Snake’s stealth with Third Eye
Can reverse all damage done with healing options
Heals possible status ailments done by Snake
Gun can damage Snake thanks to perception
More unpredictable and versatile arsenal
Just as fast
Disadvantages:
The lesser in terms of stealth
Far less skilled and experienced
Has no way to sneak up on Snake
SNAKE
Advantages:
Far more skilled and experienced
Tactically superior
Otacon grants extra intel
Greater stealth
Equally as fast
Can track Joker and prevent being snuck up on
Disadvantages:
Physically weaker
No means of sneaking up on Joker
Less versatile arsenal
Unlikely to realize Joker’s reliance on perception
Less likely to attempt lethal moves at the beginning of the fight
CREDITS
Beelzebub
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MKF4
Smashor
Papa Smurf
SOURCES
Solid Snake vs. Sam Fisher Prediction Blog
How Powerful is Solid Snake? | Metal Gear Solid
Predictions
Papa Smurf
Hey. I’m Smurf. SO, Joker vs Snake is the next matchup and this prediction is going to be leaning heavily towards Joker. Actually not really learning. More like it toppled onto Joker. Not gonna really list advantages and disadvantages this time around since it's fairly clean cut even under brackets. Snake is a very high classed soldier and definitely can hold his own in a fight yes, but Joker is just playing a whole different game. He has abilities Snake has never dreamt of seeing and will likely have at least a decently larger stat advantage. Of course there’s always Joker having such a large arsenal that he ends up using the wrong thing against Snake but
here’s the thing. Snake is probably susceptible to nearly all of these so him using the wrong thing has a lower chance of happening. So yeah, Joker wins this round and Snake gets bumped down to losers. This ended up being a lot shorter than anticipated so uhhhhh, don’t eat anything
in the salad bar at Golden Corral.
Da Lunge Fish
Joker vs Snake by Da Lunge Fish
This is Lunge… I have read numerous Persona shipping fanfictions… Please… Help me… I need friends… I need compassion… I need something to keep me anchored to this world…
Ahem, don’t listen to that impersonator of mine. Today’s prediction is, of course, this
Ren Amamiya, or Akira Kurusu (if you prefer this name, you certainly don’t know what it means in Japanese) against the gunny dude that somehow got his way into smash. Which cost him all his guns. While Joker kept his. Life is unfair. And so is this battle.
Well, bring this up in something like Death Battle, it’d be multi city block vs multiversal Joker. Bring up in VS Battles wiki, it’d be city block Snake vs outerversal Joker. I wish I was joking. Average bracket? The two are surprisingly evenly matched. Both can make about building level damage, like kicking away cars or blowing them away. Joker does have many super moves that create massive explosions which could take Snake out pretty easily, even when Smash Bracket inevitably doesn’t buy those as destroying actual stars (or existing at all since they don’t damage the environment). Snake has a bit more blatant speed feats with his missile timing, but Joker could match it with stuff like lighting timing (Joker moves a way less distance in comparison to lighting than snake in comparable to missile, so they should be comparable). Joker, though, is much more agile, the guy’s a total monkey. Snake outskills to hell and back, but ultimately, Joker should take this in my opinion. He matches in stats enough that he can sit back and rely on his abilities. Snake’s got firepower and martial arts, but Joker can heal himself constantly, and has pretty much infinite mana, considering how quickly he can regenerate SP. He has sealing, possible instant death effects, which we know smash bracket definitely buys based on Wario vs Lucas, huge AoE, absorption of attacks, damage and power boost, resurrection, special protection, etc. Snake will just be overwhelmed. Also, Joker’s charisma is directly compared to hypnosis so what if he could sedu-
Oh, how convenient of you to have brought it up
You-
(Crashing noises)
Sorry for all the confusion, but it looks like that dummy covered all the boring stuff already. Time to review what we all have really been looking for…
SHIPS. You realize how big Persona is on that stuff, right? Literally every game has an entire gameplay section based on you “building connections” with people, half of it being romantic. Can Snake counter that? Snake’s pretty consistently portrayed as a virgin despite his age and badassery, pretty much everyone else, like Raiden, had romance explored. The only possibility is him living with Meryl for a while after Shadow Moses, but it’s still only a guess. A high school student has a love life, and Snake, in his 42, doesn’t. This is not just winning a fight. This is mentally destroying your opponent by your chadly aura clashing with his virgin one. Joker has 10 romantic options, not necessarily separate from each other too. Ten. TEN. Guy’s harisma is like mind control, of course he does. And wanna hear a funny thing? Fellow Persona users from P3 and P4 has destroyed my ability to laugh at shippers. They made me one of them. Gateway to heaven is forever closed to poor ol’ Lunge. But they affected me from that side of the screen. Basically hypnosis - they warped my perspective. Persona users have outerversal level mind control - affecting someone from the other side of the screen. Solid Snake never stood a chance. The winner is Joker.
MKF4
(Credit to CTB-36 for the art.)
You’re pretty good…
Hello everyone, MKF4 here back for another prediction. This time around we have Joker vs. Snake, and the hype has certainly been built up high for this one. Neither of these characters are exactly my cup of tea, but I am still looking forward to a high-quality production once again. But who do I think will win this battle?
Well, standing here I realize that this duel is a lot more complex than it would initially seem thanks to Bracket rules. Snake doesn’t have to kill Joker to win this fight, which is fortunate for him. With the Metaverse confirmed to be a factor, Snake would be in significant trouble if we were operating under a kill-required duel.
The problem for Joker is that Snake has a cardboard box, which instantly negates any and all cases made for Joker winning because of the sheer might and awesomeness of cardboard boxes. I say this as someone with cats.
So yeah, Snake wins because boxes are boundless+++++, the second Snake whips that thing out Joker just spontaneously combusts and dies. This fight is a stomp. Boxes are awesome. No, my cat didn’t hack my computer and write this.
Have a great day everyone and enjoy the episode.
…
Oh alright, I’ll write the actual prediction. Boxes are still cool though.
Unlike with something like Ice Climbers vs. Duck Hunt, I thankfully don’t have any overly confusing questions to deal with. We know Joker’s getting the Metaverse, and that’s the main thing to unpack for this brawl. Simply put, Joker’s powers are on.
This is really bad for Snake.
Joker’s pretty much at full power in this fight, all powers are turned on and his arsenal is huge. As with many JRPG fighters, Joker comes equipped with all sorts of useful powers and abilities that he can bring into this fight. Granted, JRPG fighters haven’t exactly done all that well in Bracket, but Joker will likely handle himself better.
Now to be clear, I’m going to launch a possible controversial call out right now and say I don’t think Joker will be nearly as powerful as people expect.
I’ve noticed since Bracket started that most people seem to consider Joker a solid contender for top tier in the Bracket, if not a lock for grand champion.
Yeah, no.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Joker’s entirely weak, I just think that Bracket will kill a lot of his scaling and what-not. None of his AP feats are going to be enough to contend with characters like Sephiroth or Kirby, and while his hax might get him far, I don’t think he’s the surefire winner of Bracket most seem to think he is. I could obviously be wrong, perhaps a few years from now he could win the whole thing. But I currently find it unlikely.
You know what I do find likely?
Joker beating Snake.
As much as I’m rooting for him, I don’t think Snake will be able to win this battle. Joker can likely nullify most of Snake’s stealth options, and his combat game is overall superior to Snake’s. Snake does have ways to win, I think he should overall be the more skilled combatant compared to Joker, and I don’t think he’s completely helpless. I personally doubt Snake’s Codec will be getting hacked or anything, I doubt Joker will win 99% of the time either. This isn’t the stomp people make it out to be. But Joker should win this fight. Arsene should be able to help Joker keep up with Snake’s enormous arsenal, he’s got way better hax, and Joker does have ways to keep Snake away from a hand-to-hand grapple, the one scenario Joker does not want to get into. If Snake closes the gap, Joker likely will be in trouble in an up-close grapple with somebody armed with the experience and training Snake has.
Joker’s huge variety of hax should also be able to help him out in this fight. He can of course perform the classic stat-buffs that we’ve seen used rather often by this point, but he can also lower the stats of his enemies during combat, a useful way to weaken Snake if he so needs to. Being able to protect or redirect damage and heal himself will also be useful, though the many Pokèmon losses have taught me that this alone will not be enough. Still nice to have on top of his other stuff though.
Therefore, at the end of the day I do think there are scenarios where Snake comes out on top. However, with superior hax, power, and defense, I think Joker should edge out this victory. For real this time around, thanks for reading, and have a wonderful day.
